Worship Minister Learns to Love His Wife Without Shame #houseofprayer

Learning to give love and grace to our spouses without the hook of shame is a direct pathway to intimacy in the relationship. Scott & Jenni Means call it being “naked without shame” before our spouse.

Scott & Jenni Means run Heaven Made Marriage where they host regular retreats in the Georgia mountains. Scott has written several books and they host a YouTube channel. During his days as a worship minister at IHOP Atlanta, Scott started encountering the love of God like never before and started learning just how Jesus desires to be intimate with us and how to apply that same intimacy with his wife. From those encounters and applying them to his marriage, they now have what they describe is a marriage made in Heaven.

Trisha & Thomas Walker interviewed them both on their podcast, Seeds For Your Marriage where they share a lot about sex in marriage from a christian perspective and overcoming shame, fostering love, & the power of sexual intimacy”.
Clip from Seeds For Your Marriage podcast interview.
Ever wondered how to align your views on sexual intimacy with God's word? Scott and Jenny shed light on this profound topic, emphasizing how sexual intimacy in marriage is a divine gift that mirrors our spiritual closeness with Jesus. They advocate for the role of prayer and patience in this journey, of “trusting the process”, and they reassure listeners that improvement and growth are always possible. Don't let inhibitions hold you back; instead, embrace the healing comfort of sexual intimacy, especially in times of grief and pain.
Are the purity movement's impacts causing relationship issues? Scott and Jenny reveal how to overcome shame and condemnation that could interfere with your sex life. They explain how to love like Jesus loves and stress the importance of expressing needs in a loving way and ensuring they are heard, focusing on the issue of unmet needs in a marriage. They also explore the biblical concept of being 'naked without shame' as the ultimate form of intimacy, accentuating the need for a safe, loving environment. So join us, and let's journey together towards a thriving, intimate marriage where love reigns supreme.
Listen to Full Episode


Trisha Walker: 0:00
This is the Seeds for your Marriage podcast, where we interview married couples who have overcome difficulties in their marriage and share their testimony of how they did it. We want these tips and tools to inspire and help you thrive in your marriage.

Thomas Walker: 0:15
We are Tricia and Thomas Walker relationship coaches. We teach couples proven strategies to connect deeply and achieve God's design for an amazing marriage. Thank you for joining the Seeds for your Marriage podcast.

Trisha Walker: 0:31
Today we're going to be talking about sex.

Thomas Walker: 0:34
Thank you for joining Seeds for your Marriage podcast.

Trisha Walker: 0:37
Today we're going to be talking about the topic of sex.

Thomas Walker: 0:42
We're joined by Scott and Jenny Means, who lead a ministry Heaven Made Marriage. We're so excited to have you join us today. Scott and Jenny, if you would just take a few minutes to share a little bit about your ministry, about your marriage and a little bit about your story, so that the listeners can get a little bit familiar with who you are.

Scott Means: 1:03
Sure, so we're Scott and Jenny Means. Like you said, we've been married 41 years. We have three wonderful daughters, a son-in-law and a grand baby, and so we're excited about adding to our family In the future. My daughter just got engaged recently my oldest daughter so it's a very exciting time for us and our family. Our ministry, heaven Made Marriage. Jenny and I have been doing marriage ministry together for I don't know 10, maybe 12, 13 years now. I have no idea.

Jenni Means: 1:33
So it's been a while, but we've it feels like 41 years.

Scott Means: 1:36
Yeah, we've been doing marriage ministry since we've been married, but yeah, so Heaven Made Marriage came out of really a little bit of the kind of backstory, as my foray into marriage ministry actually came through worship and I spent a long time studying what a husband is supposed to be in Scripture. But I also was also at the same time leading worship at the International House of Prayer, doing devotional sets a couple of nights a week, and those were times, those were seasons in my life where I really explored deeply the intimacy with Jesus and especially exploring his emotions for me.

Jenni Means: 2:19
And it really changed him. Scott Bytrade is an engineer, but he's also very creative with the music and songwriting. But in this season, as his wife, we had a good marriage. We were high school sweethearts. We've known each other since sixth grade. Yeah, since sixth grade and enjoyed a closeness and we felt like we had a good marriage and back. We were definitely especially me more concerned about getting our own needs met, and when Scott began to discover how much God loves him and then realizing that's how he is to love me and started loving me like that, that changed our lives. And those nights when he was singing out worship to God, I went every time that he was on the platform doing this devotional worship and I just fell in love with this man who was experiencing God like that and sometimes I felt like he was singing to me and I know he was singing to God, but he was loving me like that too, and it was really an encounter that happened over and over again and began to really change us.

Scott Means: 3:38
Yeah. So, and then about 2010, we started leading small groups in our church marriage small groups. We developed a curriculum that we lead 13 week curriculum, wrote some books, did some other, developed some other resources. So it's really kind of evolved, you know, really over the past 12 or 13 years but been a fun ride.

Jenni Means: 3:59
And now we lead retreats weekend retreats as well as getting into some of the social media, like you guys are back on our YouTube channel, so that's fun.

Scott Means: 4:12
Yeah, this is kind of where we are.

Thomas Walker: 4:14
Amazing, amazing, 41 years. Amazing, love that you're on the journey of social media, because we're on that journey too and we're learning.

Scott Means: 4:22
Yeah, it's a wild ride.

Trisha Walker: 4:26
Yeah, absolutely. Well, my first question I have for you is it actually involves a quote that I found on the internet that you wrote, scott, and that is about marriage is meant to be more about your surrender than about your satisfaction, so explain a little bit about that, and how does that apply to your marriage personally?

Scott Means: 4:54
So well, let me just start by saying the word surrender is much misunderstood. Yeah, because we kind of think about defeat in battle, giving up to the enemy.

Jenni Means: 5:06
Wave that white flag. Yeah, yeah, losing something, losing freedom.

Scott Means: 5:10
Yeah, loss. But when we talk about surrender in marriage, what we're really talking about here something totally different. In fact, the word surrender is made up of two old French words, sir S-U-R, which is like get over and above, like surcharge, surtax over and above. And then render another old French word basically means to give over, to freely give over. So you know Jesus, in the one of the verses in the New Testament, jesus says render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar. So render has to do with, you know, giving over. So if you put those two words together, sir, and render, what you have is the heart of what we call a surrendered marriage, which is to go over and above in giving to your spouse, in giving yourself, in giving your attention, giving your time, giving your energy into to, to put them first and put loving them well as your highest priority.

Jenni Means: 6:16
And that's what changed us. Scott began to love me like that and he was surrendering. I mean, we talk, and scripture talks about submission. It's funny in the church they'll talk a lot about submission, but they don't talk a lot about sex. They don't say much about it and what what we found that they're that the Lord is talking about is the way Christ surrendered his life for us. He gave it all for us. Husbands love like that and wives. You in turn surrender yourself to your husband, like we surrender ourselves to Christ when we become one with him. And it's just the deepest form of intimacy there is between a husband and wife, but also between us and Jesus, is when we give ourselves completely over to him. He's given all for us, and to experience that oneness, yeah.

Thomas Walker: 7:12
So I'm going to speak from a man's perspective and ask Scott a quick question, because you know I'm giving of myself. I get up in the morning, I go to work, you know I take out the trash, I do all the home improvement needs around the house, I hang up the curtains on the weekends, I'm given. So is that what you're talking about? Are you talking about something maybe more different or or adding to that, because I think a lot of men hold this perspective that I'm the provider on the breadwinner, I'm going out and I'm bringing in all of this, you know, so that you can take and do the things that you need to do. So I'm surrendered, but I don't think that's what you're talking about here.

Scott Means: 7:50
No, no, not at all. And those things are important, those things are great because men are kind of hardwired to provide, to protect, you know to be that, to be that breadwinner, to be that protector, the one who's kind of guarding the home and protecting his wife. But if you look at what wives core needs are, if you ask them, you know, would you rather your husband work an extra 30 hours and be gone away from home? But you're having another, you know additional, you know bit of income. Would you rather be home sitting on the couch, snuggling and taking care of your emotional needs? Most wise will say I'd gladly give up the extra little bit of money if, if we could have an emotional connection.

Jenni Means: 8:36
And because we tend to look at how this mirrors with our relationship with Christ. You can do all the right things. You can get up, have your quiet time, you can go to church every Sunday, you can serve in, you know, whatever leadership there is, but are you fostering intimacy with your relationship with Jesus? So that's going to look different on every couple, and so there comes that communication need that you all know very well is so important. But to to spend your life being learning how to love your spouse. Well, when both sides are doing that, it is just beautiful.

Scott Means: 9:18
Well, and it kind of gets to understanding the core needs of your spouse. We spend a lot of time when we talk with couples about how to communicate your needs in a way that helps your spouse love you well. So it's not, you know, it's not demanding, it's not you have to do this or that, it's here's. Here's what my heartfelt need is, and especially important in that conversation is to say and here's what that would look like, because I hate to say it, but most men don't have a clue what satisfying their wife's core needs looks like. You know they go. They go to the things that they know well and do well, which is the kinds of things you mentioned, and feel safe doing that because they know they're not going to fail. But when it gets into wives who want more emotional connection, who maybe want more romance, who want, you know, some other, have some other different core needs from the ones that he has, yeah, it can be a real struggle for guys to understand. Okay, that's great. I'd love to do that, but I have no idea yeah, no idea how to do it. So it's helpful for wives to throw their husbands a bone and then they're going to throw their husbands a bone and say so. Here's what that would look like. For me it would be, you know, can we have a date once a week, or can we have some alone time together in the evening just to connect and talk, or whatever. Whatever that might be and again, like Jenny said, it's different for every couple, but it's good to have that conversation.

Jenni Means: 10:48
Yeah, that when you're talking about unmet needs and if you were talking about sex, that's our topic. That's such a place of vulnerability If you don't feel like your needs are getting met. And it's also so scary to ask what your spouse wants because you just are believing that you don't have. Maybe you don't even want to give that Like. It's such a vulnerable Place on both sides, on both sides and yet vulnerability is that naked, without shame.

Scott Means: 11:21
It's what, what it's what brings about intimacy, kind of you can't have Fake intimacy right. You have to be fully seen and fully known in order to take yeah.

Trisha Walker: 11:34
Yeah, and I was gonna pull that out right. There is just a lot of women, I Think, want their husbands to just know. Well, he just, he just ought to know me. If he loved me, then he would know. But you know what? I didn't know, I didn't let's, let's break it down for a little bit.

Scott Means: 11:50

Jenni Means: 11:50
what Jenny does wives is yeah, I have a friend that was like I wish my husband to do those things and I said, well, you would do. You have you told him that you Really would love it if he would do this or that? And she's like, no, if I tell him that kind of ruins it, that cancels it out, then he's doing it because I told him to and I said, well, then, get used to not having that Because he doesn't know. He doesn't know, like I don't honestly do. Tell Scott, we do tell each other and we know how to talk to each other in ways that bring down that Feeling of threatening. Can I do that? I'm afraid. I'm afraid you're gonna want me to be someone. I'm not the idea of disappointing you sexually. It's so painful. So you can just start by saying you know, if you really want to love me, well, physical like, even non sexual touch, is just that is my on ramp, honey, that is my on ramp. Can we, like you can tell I'm just sitting close, I'm supposed to show you like yeah, but Rob's like all of that kind of thing. But rather than saying I wish she would do that, he never does that I just say, hey, I really love it when you give me so you know, I love it when we're, when you reach over and offered to give me a foot rub, or or whatever my eyes me with this, but tell what it looks like. Yeah, and again.

Trisha Walker: 13:11
That's the vulnerability piece, that's opening up yourself To my partner so he can know about me and know what it is that that I need. If I don't share that and if I'm not as authentic with that, then he's not going to know which leads into my. My next question is you know, there there are, we're gonna get into sex. There there are a lot of women in particular where, and even men, their framework around what sex looks like is Shaped around what they see on TV is shaped around maybe how they grew up, conversations that were had by friends, family, right, and they don't really understand the purpose of sex in marriage, especially in a Christian marriage. What is so? So that's my question for you is what is sex in marriage and what is its purpose?

Scott Means: 14:08
Well, I'll start and then you can. You can add in your thoughts. But we say, when we, when we talk about marriage, and the goal of marriage we say is intimacy, and when I say intimacy I'm not talking as a euphemism for sex, I'm talking about intimacy in all its forms, so physical, emotional, spiritual, financial. You know, intimate, deeply connected, fully known and fully loved. So and that same definition carries right into the bedroom. It applies directly to sexual intimacy because, you know, we think that Sexual intimacy, first of all in marriage, was designed by God for husband and wife, for both, and it's designed to be the one kind of intimacy you can only get from your spouse. You know you can get the other things a lot of times from friends or from family or from other other places, but sexual intimacy is uniquely designed by God To to be the tissue that sows a couple together in a unique and holy way. And so I would say that you know, the purpose of sex in marriage is to foster the deepest, most holy, unique form of intimacy that there is, and he created it for pleasure, like.

Jenni Means: 15:27
It's very clear that the Garden of Eden was a place of pleasure. Pleasure didn't have any negative connotations. Now, like, like, oh, that if it's pleasure it's flesh and that's not good. But Honestly, in the garden there was no shame, there was complete freedom, there was perfect love, there was complete nakedness. They didn't know any of the rules, there was no right or wrong yet, and as long as you know, it's called love making. As long as it is love for the two of you we, if it's okay with him and it's okay with me, then it's okay. But if there's something that Scott wants to explore sexually that I'm not comfortable with, then love making says that he might lay that down. It's part of that surrender, or we may back up and go. Well, what is a baby step towards that? And let's see how I feel about it, because there's lots of things I mean being married for 41 years there's lots of things that over the years that we discovered and explored that's a long time to get to know each other and that in the beginning would never have crossed my mind or would have not sounded good to me.

Scott Means: 16:44
Yeah, so so kind of a circle. Back to your question what is the purpose of sex and marriage? I would say it's to foster the deepest kind of connection that you can have, and it mirrors directly the kind of spiritual intimacy we have with Jesus. So it's the same depth of emotion, the same depth of intimacy, the same depth of passion and zeal that we have for him. That's a direct parallel to the kind of thing we can find together in the bedroom or wherever.

Jenni Means: 17:17
And the same kinds of things that keep us from that intimacy with Jesus are the kinds that keep us having struggles with our sex life, like not feeling good enough or feeling shame over something, or being afraid to give all, or self-protection, lack of trust. And there could be reasons why one of the spouses isn't as interested. Maybe they don't feel like they can trust their spouse, Maybe they don't. You know, sometimes there's, there's a lot of issues that can cause that disconnect, just like for people feel disconnected with God, but there's no problem and there's no disconnect that can't be healed.

Thomas Walker: 18:04
Yeah, you know, scott and Jenny, one of the things that I think this is so good, because at the core you know, lining up our views and our perspective on our marriage to be in alignment with God and the kingdom and what the word says, right. So the idea of maybe I didn't think of sex as a gift that God has given, marriage that is uniquely designed for the husband and the wife to experience that deepest level of emotional intimacy. Maybe I didn't have that view, but now I'm. Now I have the view right, but I'm standing where I'm at in my marriage today and I'm not there right. Do you have any suggestions on how folks can get started right? Because when we align ourselves with the word of God, we typically find that where we are in our journey may not be completely in that place.

Scott Means: 18:59
So now we got to go from two right and the journey it's a process, so just some practical tips or advice that you might you might want to share with the listeners.

Jenni Means: 19:09
And I'm just going to throw this in really quick that, just like in our relationship with Jesus, it's not about, it's not about the rules we're not Pharisees, we're we. It's about our connection and our oneness with him and our oneness with each other. And so performance, you know, just like you said, oh, when I see a husband who says I'm supposed to love like that, forget it, I'm never going to be able to do that. No, it's just being good willed, moving forward. God is never saying, oh, I just can't believe. You've been a born again, believer, spirit filled this long and you're only here. You guys don't have a measurement like that.

Scott Means: 19:50
Yeah, I would say there's two, kind of two, things to keep in mind on that journey, especially early on, if you're you're, you're, you've kind of had the hard alignment and now you want to figure out where to go from here. One is to absolutely pray about your sexual intimacy and to put that in God's hands and to trust him with it, because he, he, is able to reconcile even the most broken places in us. And then the second thing is to take baby steps to find small incremental things you can do a little differently that bring you toward the, toward the goal of full, you know, full sexual intimacy and fullness in your, in your sex life, because it's, it is. It can take years, it could take a long time to, and we always say there's always more. Right, you're never really done, just like in our journey with Jesus we're never really done. Growing closer to him, there's always more. And it's the kind of thing where the more we know, the kind of more we know we don't know.

Jenni Means: 20:53
And all the seasons of life. Oh my goodness, like you can be. You can be newlyweds and sex maybe is hard at first, or maybe you just slide right into hot and heavy and everything's good. But there's going to come a season, you're going to have that first baby and, whoa, everything changes. My body is not my own but, like I'm so exhausted, I'm nursing at these. This disease is for something very different than it used to be part of how it was part of my life. And then we've had times when there's been sickness or there's been medication that affect your sex life, or times of terrible stress. There's all different seasons where it is coming down and then up and down, but those seasons bring you through, just like you walk with the Lord into a deeper intimacy if you don't give up and your sex life is worth fighting for. And if it's not good, then we just want to encourage couples to find people to talk to. There's fantastic resources that we can share too. That just don't give up, because no matter if it's a physical problem, a hormone problem, relationship problem.

Trisha Walker: 22:06
Yeah, that's really good. About 10 years ago, we were seeing a Christian counselor who encouraged us to invite the Holy Spirit in the bedroom and that actually was huge for us because it actually opened up the idea that, wow, like God actually wants to be a part of every area of our life, not just everything, Not just leave him outside and be like okay.

Scott Means: 22:37
Yeah, lock the doors. Yeah, hope he doesn't lock.

Jenni Means: 22:42
Maybe he won't find out what we just did.

Trisha Walker: 22:45
Exactly and it removes that level of shame. So if there's anything in us that is carrying shame from maybe our childhood or past relationships like it causes that vulnerability with him and with each other, to allow him to be a part of that process, the healing process.

Scott Means: 23:03
I find sex is healing.

Trisha Walker: 23:06
So in the communication, I would agree, communication is huge, being able to communicate to someone else about it. But also communication in your relationship, the relationship being able to talk to one another about honey. This doesn't feel good to me. For me personally, I'm not a big touch person. So if he comes up behind me and just puts his arms around me when I'm doing the dishes and I'm just like, but I'm like, I want to like, okay, I love him, I'll just let him hold me, but I do have to communicate, honey. If you just maybe just put your hand on my back, like, for me, that lets me know, okay, he's trying to show some affection, but he's not like smothering me, you know. But we have to like, communicate, talk about that.

Jenni Means: 23:52
Yeah, learn, yeah, exactly, and in ways that that don't, you know, hurt each other's feelings.

Thomas Walker: 23:58
Don't hurt each other Exactly, because otherwise, it can create feelings of rejection right, and that's not the intent. But it is to really like we are designed and we can change, like we are living and breathing and moving beings, but at the same time, you know, there's certain DNA characteristics about us that are who we are. That's how God made us who we are yeah.

Jenni Means: 24:19
Yeah. So that's so good that you gave him another option, Like you said. But what I would like, if you put your hand there, you're letting me know, you're there, you're. You know. All of that is there and I can respond to you more easily.

Thomas Walker: 24:34
So good, so I know you all have worked with a lot of couples over the years and I was just. We were curious to hear about common pain points and challenges that you hear from couples or that you help them work through as it relates to sex. Jenny, I think you hit on a couple of them, like shame, things of that nature, you know, performance blot, you know, et cetera. But just curious to really dig on that and say what, where are the, where are the biggest pain points and challenges that you're seeing as it relates to sex? And then we'll get into talking about how to start to overcome.

Scott Means: 25:09
Yeah. So I think certainly we would both agree that shame is the biggest barrier to intimacy, because shame and intimacy cannot coexist, they are mutually exclusive. So if you've got shame issues, either from your past or maybe from your present, about what is or is not happening in your relationship, whatever it might be, those things have to be addressed and sometimes those are the most difficult deeply rooted emotional things that have to be that the Holy Spirit has to root out, and oftentimes with the help of even of a counselor, especially if it's you're talking about maybe past abuse or some other kind of traumatic experiences that's resulted in lingering shame. So certainly shame, I think, is number one.

Jenni Means: 25:58
And I'll add about that I'm sure you have a lot of younger listeners. We're seeing a lot with young couples that came through the the purity movement and we're not we're not knocking waiting till marriage, like we believe that that is what we, god's design, that's what we want. We it was almost a technicality there, but we we made it to the altar before having sex, but that's not a badge to wear and that doesn't mean that's why we have a good sex life. There's so much confusion around earning God's favor, and so there are a lot of women out there that maybe they, they had the purity ring and they fully intended to wait and didn't, for whatever reason. It could be from abuse, it could be from rape, it could be just you are in love and it happened. Whatever, and they, they experienced that when they're having that sex outside of marriage, that it seems great, and then they get married and the shame that they didn't wait just steals something. They, they begin to, I guess, feel like a disappointment already. We just see it over and over again, and it's been really important to bring out the grace message that Jesus has for us. He's ultimately a redeemer and a healer, so what did he say to the woman caught in adultery? I do not condemn you, go and sin no more. And I know this is a tricky area because we're not, we're not condoning sin in any way either to Jesus. But what he was saying is I see your heart, you're, you're, you're married, I want you to enjoy each other. Inviting Jesus into the room helps people so much even worship music, cause it really it is a place of healing and finding out. You know, even like the woman in song of Solomon, I'm, I'm dark, but lovely, like no you, you, you love me, you want me. While we were yet sinners, he loves us, he forgave us, and to not let religion, religiosity and shame and condemnation come into your relationship. And we shared that once, and a young woman said this is revolutionary, and it there's you know, she never heard that before. Yeah, she never heard she never heard that, and so we just that that's a big area of shame and yeah.

Scott Means: 28:45
Yeah, and then the other one that we touched on just a bit ago was this area of unmet needs and unspoken needs. If you know if, if a relationship has unmet needs for a protected period of time, a lot of negative fruit grows in the marriage. So it could be the anger, frustration, loneliness, feeling of rejection, lots of things around that. So, getting good at expressing and hearing each other's needs and responding in love, even if it's not I hear you all do that, it's more of a I hear your heart. I want to move toward you in that. To get good at talking about your needs, and probably I would say in the bedroom is the biggest, it's the hardest area to talk about that without it blowing up into very-.

Thomas Walker: 29:38
A misunderstanding, yeah, a big misunderstanding.

Scott Means: 29:41
Because it's so much vulnerability. It's the place of probably the greatest vulnerability.

Jenni Means: 29:46
And if you're not having sex there's so much accusation, like even this podcast could feel like an accusation. It could be so painful to hear what it could be like. And it's not like that, whether one of the spouses doesn't even like having sex or I'm fine without it. That really that's like saying I'm fine without intimacy with Jesus. I'd rather just follow my devotional routine but not hear His voice and experience His love. But so much, so many people in the world now maybe always was like this, I don't know but are experiencing trauma and so we don't want to feel. And sex makes you feel like if you have a lot of pain in you, if you have anger, if you have hurt, you can't. That's why it's hard to have sex with someone, that when you're in the middle of a fight, because your feelings are pretty bad. And so sometimes I know for women that I've talked to that are experiencing some kind of stress and pain. They don't want to feel anything, they just want to be numb. But you can't selectively numb, so that means that you're numbing the pain but you're also numbing connection and joy and receiving and giving love, and so it's working together to provide a safe place where you can let go of self-protecting and feel. Let yourself feel, cause you're right. It can be so healing and comforting to come together and have sex together when you're grieving, when you're in pain, when you're. That's what it's meant to be.

Trisha Walker: 31:35
On the next episode of Seeds for your.

Scott Means: 31:38
Marriage. In Genesis it says and the man and his wife were naked and felt no shame. And so we feel like naked without shame is the ultimate definition of intimacy, and that's sexual intimacy, that's emotional intimacy, all the forms of intimacy we are designed to be. God's intention is that we live before each other naked, that is fully known, fully vulnerable, but with no shame, and that is being met with love and grace in our marriage. And so those two things together, those two scriptures together, are just so powerful. If we can pray into those and ask the Lord to give us insight into what those things mean for our own marriages, I think it would be real fuel for the marriage fire.

Trisha Walker: 32:33
Thank you for listening to Seeds for your Marriage with hosts Trisha and Thomas Walker. We pray this episode has given you tips and tools on how to thrive in your marriage. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast and follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Trisha and Thomas. We wanna hear from you.

Thomas Walker: 32:51
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